Gun Control?

[JPNPrincess]

An elderly lady did her shopping and, upon returning to her car, she found four males in the act of leaving with her car. She dropped her shopping bags and drew her handgun, proceeding to scream at them at the top of her voice, "I have a gun and I know how to use it! Get out of the car you scumbags!"

The four men didn't wait for a second invitation but got out and ran like mad, whereupon the lady, somewhat shaken, proceeded to load her shopping bags into the back of the car and get into the driver's seat. She
was so shaken that she could not get her key into the ignition.

She tried and tried and then it dawned on her why. A few minutes later she found her own car parked four or five spaces farther down. She loaded her bags into her car and drove to the police station.

The sergeant to whom she told the story nearly tore himself in two with laughter and pointed to the other end of the counter, where four pale white males were reporting a carjacking by a mad elderly woman described as white, less then 5' tall, with glasses and curly white hair carrying a large handgun.

No charges were filed.

[nicnet]

That's probably the best arguement I've heard for modifying any vehicle you own, so you can tell it apart from similar rigs. Great Granny Story.

[TOOLman]

OMG :eek:
Interesting story, but quite frightening, too.

I don't think I would run that risk. Not only are lifted ZJ's extremely rare here, and mine is dirtier than everyone else's, but we also don't have the same gun laws here. After reading this story, I'm glad we don't...

[JT's TJ]

What a coincidence! I'm glad we don't have Sweden's gun laws!!! :p

[Etnomaiab]

LOL :D :D :D

[Mr. Bill]

LOL :D :D :D

Whoa, Deja vu! I almost feels like you posted that exact thing before. :D

[Warlock]

http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/cwm/alien/laugh.gif

[lonegpr]

What a coincidence! I'm glad we don't have Sweden's gun laws!!! :p


DITTO'S. :D

Gun's, gut's, women and Jeeps. That's what it's all about.

So here. :finger:

[flip]

What a coincidence! I'm glad we don't have Sweden's gun laws!!! :p

Another DITTO here.

as soon as our firearms go, our freedoms follow shortly thereafter.


oh yah.... really funny story. :D

[JPNPrincess]

Another DITTO here.

as soon as our firearms go, our freedoms follow shortly thereafter.



I agree. Historically shortly after the firearms are taken from the people, they fall under totalitarian rule. It's happend several times.

[TOOLman]

I'm not passing any judgement on your culture. Jeez, lighten up people :(

Are you saying we are less free than you are? Well, we may be, but that's due to our ridiculous taxes, not gun control. In fact, in some areas, I think we are more free in Sweden than you are, especially when it comes to freedom of speech. Yes, I actually said that, and I mean it, too.

I've been determined not to get into any discussions on the Jeep forums about guns and drugs, because I know that my point of view is quite different from yours. I did type a small passage about it at first, as my first reply in this thread, but decided it might be interpreted wrongly. I therefore deleted it and wrote just the line you seem to feel offended by.

It seems I can't write anything other than maybe a "LOL" without pi$$ing people off these days. :(

[lonegpr]

Don't get us wrong. We're not pissed off because of what you wrote about gun laws. If you notice, some of us used emoticons of a good natured variety to get that point across. I did. I realize that you folks have a different outlook on things than we do over here. No problem.

We're just being thankful that your country's gun laws aren't ours. It's a cultural thing. Our country was founded under different circumstances. And that mentallity continues for the most part with some erosion with each passing year. :(

Don't take it personal. I never meant for it to be a personal attack. I'm a peaceable guy myself. :D

I just happen to like guns and what they represent.

[BillR]

"Armed people are citizens. Unarmed people are SUBJECTS."

[JT's TJ]

...Don't take it personal. I never meant for it to be a personal attack...

Well said!!! Exactly the spirit I meant it in, too!

Actually, technically speaking, the Swedes are "subjects," right, TOOLman? Doesn't Sweden have a figurehead King, like the UK?

Just curious.

[JPNPrincess]

An armed citizenry is the best defense against crimes.

[TOOLman]

Actually, technically speaking, the Swedes are "subjects," right, TOOLman? Doesn't Sweden have a figurehead King, like the UK?

Just curious.

:confused::confused:
What does the monarchy/republic issue have to do with gun control? Should I shoot His Majesty if I could buy a gun at any 7-Eleven? I don't get it.

The King is a figurehead, as you said. He has no power, but the royal family is well-liked by a vast majority of the population. Your Kennedy-cult in the 60's was the same thing, kind of.

If you need a gun in Sweden, you can have one. Hunters have them. People who compete with pistols for sports have them. But there are very strict rules on how they should be kept (locked up etc.) and you cannot carry a concealed weapon in public. Since not every Tom, Dick and Harry has a gun here, there are less guns that can be stolen and used by criminals. Your situation is completely different, since there are so many guns already. I'm not suggesting you introduce our kind of gun control. It's a completely different situation in America.

OTOH, letting go of our gun control would not transform us into a free and happy people. Since we don't have that tradition, lots of people who shouldn't own guns could get one. I feel a lot safer knowing that a mad, drunken moron I meet on the street is very unlikely to draw a gun on me, or that the aforementioned granny won't threaten me when I try to get into my ZJ.

[Warlock]

I don't think he meant anything by the question about your king, other than don't you have one? And you have answered that question good enough for me.

And to answer yours, the monarchy issue has nothing to do with gun control. (I think, you said he had no power)

(joking)

I think that he was jokingly implying, where there is a king, there are subjects. Every non-royal person is a subject.

So, if you have a king, you are considered a subject, because you are working for the king, and giving him almost everything you make. (and from what you said you have high taxes :D)

(end joke)

Again, I mean absolutely no disrespect. And I don't think JT meant anything by his comment either.

TOOLman, if you think this post is disrespectful to you in any way, let me know, and I will delete it.

[JT's TJ]

:confused::confused:
What does the monarchy/republic issue have to do with gun control? Should I shoot His Majesty if I could buy a gun at any 7-Eleven? I don't get it.


The two topics are not really related; at least not as far as my comment was concerned. Warlock is right... I didn't mean anything by the comment. It's just a point of information. No value judgment intended.

Look, I have a lot of respect for Sweden as a nation, but the government there tends to lean closer to the socialist end of the scale than I would prefer. But, I don't really have much say in how Sweden runs itself. If the Swedish people are satisfied with their government, more power to 'em.

And... any country which produced Peter Forsberg is okay in my book!!! :D

BUT... inasmuch as I respect the Swedes' right to govern themselves as they see fit, I expect others to respect our right to govern ourselves as we see fit. In my mind, and the minds of many others, our right to keep and bear arms is integral to our system of self-government. It is the true bulwark of our freedom. This comment is not necessarily directed at you, Tommy, but anytime there is any kind of internet discussion about guns, there is sure to be a European ready to chime in about how superior their system is, and it gets irritating. You're just lucky enough to be here to catch the brunt of my irritation!! ;)

This is not Europe, and we do not want to be like Europe.

[JT's TJ]

I feel a lot safer knowing that a mad, drunken moron I meet on the street is very unlikely to draw a gun on me, or that the aforementioned granny won't threaten me when I try to get into my ZJ.

Just one more thing... I'm pretty sure this story about the granny is apocryphal!!! At the very least, it's not the kind of thing that happens every day... even in "gun-crazy" America.

[Mr. Bill]

I think that the most important thing here is that everyone prefers the form of government that they are currently subjected to. In Sweden gun control (from what you are saying) has limited access to guns for criminals and law-abiders alike. In the US, there are far to many guns in the hands of criminals, that's just part of living in a democratic republic. Taking guns away from law abiding citizens would only make them increasingly vunerable to criminals. Also, when our country was founded, a series of checks and balances were set up in order to maintain the power balance we have between the One, the Few, and the Many (the President, the Goverment, and the People). Guns are the most important balancer to keep the One or the Few from taking away the rights and freedom of the Many. This is why so many Americans are so adament about our right to own guns. It was a right given by the founding fathers with the intention of protecting us from Dictatorship, Aristocracy, etc.

[Guest]

I share your thoughts, TOOLman. As you may have guessed, I am not American. I noticed that you got into a bit of trouble on the other forum with a certain topic that you started (and then deleted ;) ), so I suppose you are starting to see a few cultural peculiarities about these yanks. It was immensely surprising to me when I first arrived here to see all this weird stuff going on. The "absolute right" to possess an instrument that is designed first and foremost to kill a human being, the "right" for a state to kill one of its own citizens in the name of justice, and of course the fear a large segment of the population ("women") have for the other. So, it is no surprise to me, that you, from a famously liberal and socially advanced country, would get into some trouble when addressing those subjects in a forum like this.

I find the American culture fascinating, and I really love this country. But, actually the people here don't seem to realize just how medieval some of their concepts are. So, for the rest of us from pretty much the rest of the World (which constitutes a large majority of the land mass, as well as the population, to the surprise of the US centric americans), we can just look and observe with some surprise.

I pride myself at being able to clearly see what people from different cultures do, simply because all the other sheep around them are doing the same thing. The reason for this? I grew up in South Africa at the peak of the Apartheid age. I was a teenager in the 80's, and left South Africa as an exile in '91 to avoid conscription in a very unjust military force. It was a huge disappointment to me, as I grew up, to see almost all of my peers and mentors around me taking on the philosphies and concepts of those around them, without a second thought. Some of these discussions remind me of my days in South Africa, because that society is even more violent and gun crazy than this, which is bad enough compared to Europe.

By the way, Europeans and even Swedes have their own peculiarites. Most people in most cultures do. It is still amusing to observe that very few people stop to think..... hey, why do we do this? Even in the most extreme case, such as Nazi Germany in the '30s, or South Africa in the '70s and '80s. (Which I witnessed in all its brutality, firsthand.)

No flames intended for anyone here, I was simply enjoying the interaction between TOOLman and some of the others, here and on the other forum. TOOLman, you're ok. I'm with you on this one. :) (But, on others, I'm not ;) )

[TOOLman]

What have I done? I feel like Dr. Frankenstein :eek:
OK, in descending reply order...

Jeep Trick - yes, I knew there were going to be cultural differences. I like that. Talking only to people who agree with you makes for no progress. It's boring. What I was not quite prepared for is how extremely defensive Americans get when they feel that someone may be criticizing them, however remotely (note: I didn't, really). I think the US of A is a great nation. It is after all the only remaining super power. I admire many aspects of it, and I am less thrilled about others. I feel the same way for Sweden BTW. O/T, à propos South Africa, I've just started reading my 8th Wilbur Smith novel :)

Mr. Bill - "Taking guns away from law abiding citizens would only make them increasingly vunerable to criminals" That is true, in your case. It is not true to the same extent here. That's why I said that I don't criticize the American way, and I'm not advocating increased gun control for you. I have no business trying to run your country. I'm just glad to live in a country where most people don't carry guns, that's all. We don't have a dictator or an aristocracy (that matters), even though we don't pack iron.

JT's TJ - the Swedish government is way to far out on the left for my pleasure, too. But it's a democracy, and since more than half of the morons in this country keep voting for the reds, the rest of us have to accept that or move. And I wasn't saying our system is superior. Our traditions are different, our solutions can't be applied in America and yours can't be applied here. Neither is superior to the other, IMHO. Just different. In some areas I prefer our way of doing things, probably because I'm born and raised with these values. In other areas I'd like our system to be more like yours. Neither one is even close to being perfect.

Warlock - I know he didn't mean anything about the king :) And our taxes don't go to the king (except about $10 per person per year, which I can live with).
I don't think this post is disrespectful to me or anyone else. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I know I overreacted, partly due to some aggravations at work, but it turned into an interesting discussion, don't you think? And even if I had been offended, I wouldn't dream of asking you to delete the post. As I mentioned in an earlier reply, freedom of speech is holy to me. I think Sweden has the oldest laws in the world to guarantee that freedom, and if someone tries to tamper with that, I'll get more gun-crazy that any American you've ever seen :) (no offense). That's one reason I got so perplexed over the thread on JU that Jeep Trick mentioned. That wouldn't have raised an eyebrow in Sweden, but several Americans were so offended that the told me to delete the topic. To me that's censoring, which I find very very hateful.

Sheesh, I knew I should've kept to my old rule of not replying to topics about guns and drugs :rolleyes:

[DanB98TJ]

Warlock - I know he didn't mean anything about the king :) And our taxes don't go to the king (except about per person per year, which I can live with).
[

D@mn...how can I be King? Think of all the Jeep mods that would pay for....:D:D:D:D

[JT's TJ]

... actually the people here don't seem to realize just how medieval some of their concepts are. So, for the rest of us from pretty much the rest of the World (which constitutes a large majority of the land mass, as well as the population, to the surprise of the US centric americans), we can just look and observe with some surprise ...


Tommy, do you see now what I mean when I complain about condescending Europeans???? Well, okay, in this case, condescending South Africans.

Medieval??? Sheesh!! :rolleyes:

[Warlock]

TOOLman, everything's OK in my book.

Jeep Trick, I find us far from medieval. Also, guns were designed first and foremost as an easier alternative than bow and arrow to gather food.

[lonegpr]

TOOLman, everything's OK in my book.

Jeep Trick, I find us far from medieval. Also, guns were designed first and foremost as an easier alternative than bow and arrow to gather food.


If you look back on the history of firearms, they were originally intended to be used to kill people. The ability to hunt for food came afterwards.

I don't have a problem with the fact that gun's were designed as weapons for killing people. Some people need killing. Those who want to take away basic human rights given to us by our Creator being the prime candidates. Folks who want to take away from me by force things that I worked hard to obtain are also good candidates. Same for those who want to hurt me or any of my family.

Aside from the fact that I have guns for self protection, I also enjoy shooting as a sport. I've never hunted, since I prefer to let Bambi and his friends live their lives the best they can. I don't have a problem though with those who do enjoy to hunt. I've enjoyed plenty of venison over the years from guys at work who have brought down some deer.

I am also awaiting my concealed carry permit to go through. I want the choice of being able to protect my life from those who would like to harm me, should it ever occur.

An armed citizenry is a polite citizenry.

As far a being primevial, humans will always be, regardless of the technological wonders that we produce. We will always be savage to some degree. It is only with laws that we tame the savage beast in us, therefore permitting us to live together.

But when it comes down to it, the only thing that really matters is Jeeps. :D :)

[Warlock]

But when it comes down to it, the only thing that really matters is Jeeps. :D :)

Thank you very much!! :D I think that says it all.

[TOOLman]

D@mn...how can I be King? Think of all the Jeep mods that would pay for....:D:D:D:D

Sorry to disappoint you, Dan, but I made a small calculation error. It's $1 per person per year. Sweden's population is only 9 million. Still, that's enough for quite a lot of mods :)

[Paulwpetrea]

It seems I can't write anything other than maybe a "LOL" without pi$$ing people off these days. :(

Hey, :)

Don't ever delete something you said, unless it is a personal attack on another individual. People have a tendancy to take BB's way to seriously. Always post your honest opinion. We all have one and are all entitled to say our part.

I may disagree with something you, or someone else may say, or have said. But, I will fight to the death, for your right to say it, sir.

In my book, anything but a personal attack, is acceptable by me. Of course, this seems to be a family oriented board to. :)

[DanB98TJ]

Sorry to disappoint you, Dan, but I made a small calculation error. It's Originally posted by TOOLman


Sorry to disappoint you, Dan, but I made a small calculation error. It's $1 per person per year. Sweden's population is only 9 million. Still, that's enough for quite a lot of mods :) per person per year. Sweden's population is only 9 million. Still, that's enough for quite a lot of mods :)

Hey, I'm easy to please! 9 mil will suit me fine.:D:p

[Paulwpetrea]

Well sir,

I know very little of South Africa. I have to admit, I wasn't very good in World History.

However, I must respond to your post.

First, I do not consider having the right to own a firearm, "weird stuff". It is not an "absolute right", to own a gun, in this country. A convicted felon for one, can not legally own one. But, it doesn't matter what country you live in. If a person wants to get a gun illegally, they will. There is no doubt about that. That is whether or not, you have gun control laws. Criminals do not now, nor ever will have any respect for laws.

Now, as far as killing another human goes, please read my response to his post and you will see exactly how I feel, on the issue of the death penalty.:

Toolman's Post (http://jeepsunlimited.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/002979.html)

I am assuming this is the same Toolman on this board, that posted that thread? If so, I guess he's not as liberal as you may think.

After reading that post Jeep Trick, how do YOU feel then, sir? Do you have any children, nieces, nephews, or other relatives? Killing another human, is sometimes a necessary evil. But, this is a "right" that you feel is unjust for a state to have.

How about the useless scumbag that beats, rapes, or abuses (in other ways), a woman? Perhaps he should just have the right to get off and live a happy-go-lucky life? I think so, too ... being castrated, though.

I can't understand why we allow these useless leaches on our society to even live. People who have been proven, beyond a reasonable doubt to have done something, as horrible as in that JU post, should be terminated. Period. There is no reason for 15-20 years of appeals. Why waste taxpayers money for lawyers, witnesses and Judges, to go through it all over and over. Terminate the worthless, useless lifeform.

Now, as you said, "I was a teenager in the 80's, and left South Africa as an exile in '91 to avoid conscription in a very unjust military force." This sir, is why we own guns. We do not want to end up having to leave, because of the military deciding to do 'what it wants', to us as citizens.

The forefathers of the United States were very smart, beyond their years. They wanted to make sure we had the right to protect ourselves against a government, which may decide it wants to take over every aspect of our lives.

BTW Jeep Trick,
Our government isn't always too harsh on people ... in fact, more and more, it's too easy going. Let me tell you this ...

... about the drunk-driver who murdered my best friend, on December 5, 1998. It was a 22 year-old girl who did this. She just went out and drank too much one night. My friend paid the price for it, with his life. When she hit him, she broke every bone in his body. She then tried to say she hit a dear. the d@mn girl wouldn't even admit to doing it. I could see being somewhat easier on her, had she even admitted guilt. However, that never happened. You know how much time she served? Thirty days. That's it. In this case, she deserved to die. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. A life, for a life.

I do not intend for this to personally attack you, or anyone else. I do apologize for it being too long of a post.

[TOOLman]

Paul - I appreciate what you're saying, and I agree wholeheartedly. The topic in question (on JU) was not a personal attack, just a misjudgement on my part. It was a joke about something that might be extremely offensive if read by the wrong person at the wrong time. Most of the replies were in fact quite civil, merely suggesting that I delete the post for my own good. Since it evoked such strong emotions, and since it was not vital and did not reflect my personal opinion, I decided to delete it so as not to rub everybody the wrong way.

I would never delete anything that was my honest opinion. In a democracy, as both our countries are, we have the right to say what we think. I agree, though, that it should be expressed in a civilized and polite way.

People also seem to have a problem with the distinction between a person and that person's opinions. Even if I disagree with somebody, I can still respect, and even like, him/her. In this particular case, I think we've agreed to disagree.

I'd also like to point out, just in case someone has misunderstood my point here, that I am not against guns. I, too, like to shoot sometimes. I just don't think that they belong in everyday civilian life, that's all, and it's my opinion - I don't say I'm right.

[TOOLman]

Paul - yes, that's my post. I can't believe you remembered. It was pushed off page one very quickly, if I remember correctly, because wvjeep posted a couple of dozen jokes in separate threads :)

That case is very hot right now. The trial has been held, and the whole town is holding its breath waiting for the verdict. He's facing 2-8 years in prison, if convicted. I hope for the maximum.

We could probably discuss the pros and cons of the death penalty all day, and I'd love to, but I don't think we'll start agreeing with eachother. I'm against it, but I understand and respect your reasons for being for it. God knows I've felt the same way sometimes.
I'm very sorry to hear about your friend. I think drunk driving should be consider a much more serious offense than it is. IMO, it's second-degree murder, and a 30-day sentence is a slap in the face of the victim's family and friends - in fact to the whole of society.

[Guest]

"It was a 22 year-old girl who did this. She just went out and drank too much one night. My friend paid the price for it, with his life. When she hit him, she broke every bone in his body. She then tried to say she hit a dear. the d@mn girl wouldn't even admit to doing it. I could see being somewhat easier on her, had she even admitted guilt. However, that never happened. You know how much time she served? Thirty days. That's it. In this case, she deserved to die. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. A life, for a life. "

A terrible loss for you (and for this, I am sincerely sorry), but don't you think that your reaction is a little extreme? Are you advocating the DEATH PENALTY for DUI? Sounds a little "old-testament" to me.... because, afterall, that is where the "eye for an eye" gem is found. Perhaps you could find the verses in the newer parts of the bible where Jesus talks about that phrase, and think about it a little. (By the way, don't jump to any conclusions about my religious affiliation).

A far greater man than any of us, Nelson Mandela, was in prison for 27 years, and his closest friends were beaten, tortured and murdered.

Did he seek revenge? No, in fact, he and the ANC went out of their way to reach out and forgive, and work for the future. One of the first things that went out the door was capital punishment, the same extreme practice that had ended the lives of so many freedom fighters in South Africa.

I can also give you lots of examples of friends and family who have been hurt and killed... in fact, I can think of 6 people close to me, right now, who died very violent deaths. A little different from an automobile accident, which is, afterall, an accident (although the tragic consequences are the same), but certainly not a premeditated action.

Peace to all...


P.S. don't put me into your "liberal" pigeon hole. You'll be surprised...

EDIT: One practice that was and is still found in South Africa, is corporal punishment. Having been whipped and beaten on a regular basis myself, I can assure you that ... it works... heh heh. :D Not that I am a corporal punishment advocate, but just wanted to indicate that everything has its place.

[JT's TJ]

I also think that the death penalty for DUI is extreme, but in this case, don't you think that 30 days is absolutely ludicrous?

I have had the good fortune to spend quite a lot of time in Singapore. I'm starting to think that caning is not such a bad idea...

[Paulwpetrea]

Conservative or Liberal, I love to be able to spend time swapping information, stories, and various other things about life with you all. :)

[Colo.TJ]

I think that the most important thing here is that everyone prefers the form of government that they are currently subjected to. In Sweden gun control (from what you are saying) has limited access to guns for criminals and law-abiders alike. In the US, there are far to many guns in the hands of criminals, that's just part of living in a democratic republic. Taking guns away from law abiding citizens would only make them increasingly vunerable to criminals. Also, when our country was founded, a series of checks and balances were set up in order to maintain the power balance we have between the One, the Few, and the Many (the President, the Goverment, and the People). Guns are the most important balancer to keep the One or the Few from taking away the rights and freedom of the Many. This is why so many Americans are so adament about our right to own guns. It was a right given by the founding fathers with the intention of protecting us from Dictatorship, Aristocracy, etc.

Finally an excellent desription of why our right to bear arms is so important. Many foreigners do not understand this. They believe we are just gun happy hillbillies. It's not the need it's the right. Unfortunatly many of our "rights" have been so erroded that we do not have the same freedoms as other countries. This seems to be a case of the world evolving and the U.S. devolving.

[Guest]

I also think that the death penalty for DUI is extreme, but in this case, don't you think that 30 days is absolutely ludicrous?

I have had the good fortune to spend quite a lot of time in Singapore. I'm starting to think that caning is not such a bad idea...

I agree, absolutely, I agree. Thirty days is completely wrong. :(

I remember the "good old days" at my school days, when the entire class (boys only) would be caned, maybe because teacher was in a rotten mood. It was great fun, everybody would get 2-4 cuts with the "bacon slicer", and we would laugh at the guys who cried. It was fun to be at the front of the line, and then you could enjoy the looks on the faces of those waiting their turn. I think it was worse to wait for it, than to actually get it!! And yes, some of them bawled, even at age 18!! To cry in front of the other guys was even worse than the pain.... heh heh. (Too macho, eh?) I NEVER cried. :D

I don't think it did any good, because the caning was as regular as clockwork (why do it this week if it didn't work last week?).

Sure beats detention, though. ;) 5 minutes of excrutiating pain, some black-n-blue stripes to show the guys in the locker room, and it is all a memory.